Interesting to see more of Clark's propaganda and the way that they can fight it (re Ship crews being killed).
This is one of those episodes where it seems like so much is going on and building up to everything. Like the next few episodes I find this one very hard to watch - it is a great story, but so painful. Seeing the way that everything falls apart (even though most of it works out in the end)...
Anyone think Susan ever forgave or completely trusted Garibaldi again? Do you think Delenn's comment to Lennier showed she wasn't too sure of Michael even before this (involuntary) betrayal?
That fight scene is brutal. And the cutaway/frozen in the flashbulb edits are kind of interesting.
I hate that smarmy ISN announcer with a passion. I hope she was first up against the wall when the Revolution came.
Thinking about the title...the idea that the enemy this time is someone we know. That the people in charge aren't telling the truth. That you can't trust even those you know well. That the face is not necessarily the mirror of the soul. That the enemy can lurk behind your own eyes. Chilling.
And wasn't it gross dereliction of duty, Sheridan putting his personal issues ahead of his cause, especially at this crucial time? Bester says the Shadows knew they had to take out four people (at least): Sheridan, Delenn, Susan, and Michael. I vaguely remember seeing?hearing?reading?thinking in my own head? that taking out Sheridan would cripple Delenn, and possibly Susan. That's G'Kar, isn't it? Beginning of The Hour of the Wolf? I like to think Susan at least would have snapped out of it and kicked some Shadow ass. And she has even more reason to forge ahead in the mission against Clarke. She does all right leading the fleet while John's incommunicado.
But really John? At this point to go haring off on a personal rescue mission that's almost certainly a trap? Of course given his track record on barging into traps (Do not go to Z'ha'dum!), why am I surprised?
Yes! It is one of the problems I have with Sheridan. Agree about Susan - although I think Delenn would also snap out of it, but probably into a destructive and vengeful way (like when Duckat was killed...) and idk if Earth would have survived a second time.
Hee. I still have the outline of a story where Delenn turns into Galadriel's Dark and Terrible Queen after John's fall. The Universe regrets it.
It's the classic Hero problem in modern epics. What do you do about the undeniable fact that the Hero really ought to direct from behind the lines? Sheridan's got his Commander Ryker in Ivanova, Garibaldi, and even Marcus. But his honor won't let him sacrifice someone else for a personal reason, and it won't let him send someone else into a trap. Conundrum.
I think you are right - which is part of the reason I guess why most of the better examples of leadership I could point to are in books rather than film or tv.
I still have the outline of a story where Delenn turns into Galadriel's Dark and Terrible Queen after John's fall. The Universe regrets it. I can believe the universe would!!
I still have the outline of a story where Delenn turns into Galadriel's Dark and Terrible Queen after John's fall. The Universe regrets it.
I've toyed with similar ideas myself. Because Delenn's two basic reactions to the death of loved ones are suicide and genocide, and sometimes suicidal genocide if she had managed to go through with her attack on Z'ha'dum plan.
I'd definitely say Garibaldi is lucky John survived more less intact, because between Susan and Delenn, the truth wasn't going to save him if it had gone another way.
Yup. I don't think Susan ever completely trusted Garibaldi again. She isn't the type to forgive easily.
Sheridan is very single-minded and protective. Those are two parts of his character both for better and worse. He gets an idea in his head, and no one can talk him out of it. And he protects those he cares about fiercely, sometimes to the detriment of the overall mission. I'm not sure the show portrays it as entirely positive. It is just part of who he is.
That being said, I think this is a common problem with how heroes are portrayed. Because I think a lot of people see protecting those you personally care about even ahead of the greater good as a good thing and as showing how much they care. When, in fact, in real life military commanders often have to make tough decisions, and some of the greatest heroes in history had to let someone(s) die because otherwise it would have sacrificed even more people.
Yes, individuals matter. And yes, we all have people we love and would hate to see hurt. But when you're in charge, sometimes you do have to allow some sacrifices. And those sacrifices hurt, especially if it is someone the leader cares about. But that is just part of being a leader.
I wonder if the original idea of having Susan get together with Byron (grin and bear it with me) came from her being stripped of all her support. If she no longer trusts Garibaldi and Marcus is dead and Sheridan is busy with Delenn and the Alliance maybe the idea of a telepathic family, a family which is what she's always wanted, plus the connection with her mother, tugged at her.
Fighting Earth may have affected her more than we're shown as well. I've often thought that would have been a better reason for her to hare off to the stars than mourning Marcus and what might have been.
I like the idea that it's just part of who Sheridan is. Every hero needs a flaw, even if it's a semi-positive flaw. He just can't give up on people, which is maybe why they follow him.
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timeasmymeasure
no subject
Date: 2015-01-24 01:44 pm (UTC)This is one of those episodes where it seems like so much is going on and building up to everything. Like the next few episodes I find this one very hard to watch - it is a great story, but so painful. Seeing the way that everything falls apart (even though most of it works out in the end)...
no subject
Date: 2015-01-24 05:47 pm (UTC)That fight scene is brutal. And the cutaway/frozen in the flashbulb edits are kind of interesting.
I hate that smarmy ISN announcer with a passion. I hope she was first up against the wall when the Revolution came.
Thinking about the title...the idea that the enemy this time is someone we know. That the people in charge aren't telling the truth. That you can't trust even those you know well. That the face is not necessarily the mirror of the soul. That the enemy can lurk behind your own eyes. Chilling.
And wasn't it gross dereliction of duty, Sheridan putting his personal issues ahead of his cause, especially at this crucial time? Bester says the Shadows knew they had to take out four people (at least): Sheridan, Delenn, Susan, and Michael. I vaguely remember seeing?hearing?reading?thinking in my own head? that taking out Sheridan would cripple Delenn, and possibly Susan. That's G'Kar, isn't it? Beginning of The Hour of the Wolf? I like to think Susan at least would have snapped out of it and kicked some Shadow ass. And she has even more reason to forge ahead in the mission against Clarke. She does all right leading the fleet while John's incommunicado.
But really John? At this point to go haring off on a personal rescue mission that's almost certainly a trap? Of course given his track record on barging into traps (Do not go to Z'ha'dum!), why am I surprised?
no subject
Date: 2015-01-25 06:30 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2015-01-26 02:02 pm (UTC)It's the classic Hero problem in modern epics. What do you do about the undeniable fact that the Hero really ought to direct from behind the lines? Sheridan's got his Commander Ryker in Ivanova, Garibaldi, and even Marcus. But his honor won't let him sacrifice someone else for a personal reason, and it won't let him send someone else into a trap. Conundrum.
no subject
Date: 2015-01-27 01:51 pm (UTC)I still have the outline of a story where Delenn turns into Galadriel's Dark and Terrible Queen after John's fall. The Universe regrets it.
I can believe the universe would!!
no subject
Date: 2015-01-27 03:35 pm (UTC)I've toyed with similar ideas myself. Because Delenn's two basic reactions to the death of loved ones are suicide and genocide, and sometimes suicidal genocide if she had managed to go through with her attack on Z'ha'dum plan.
I'd definitely say Garibaldi is lucky John survived more less intact, because between Susan and Delenn, the truth wasn't going to save him if it had gone another way.
no subject
Date: 2015-01-28 10:32 am (UTC)Sheridan is very single-minded and protective. Those are two parts of his character both for better and worse. He gets an idea in his head, and no one can talk him out of it. And he protects those he cares about fiercely, sometimes to the detriment of the overall mission. I'm not sure the show portrays it as entirely positive. It is just part of who he is.
That being said, I think this is a common problem with how heroes are portrayed. Because I think a lot of people see protecting those you personally care about even ahead of the greater good as a good thing and as showing how much they care. When, in fact, in real life military commanders often have to make tough decisions, and some of the greatest heroes in history had to let someone(s) die because otherwise it would have sacrificed even more people.
Yes, individuals matter. And yes, we all have people we love and would hate to see hurt. But when you're in charge, sometimes you do have to allow some sacrifices. And those sacrifices hurt, especially if it is someone the leader cares about. But that is just part of being a leader.
no subject
Date: 2015-01-28 12:07 pm (UTC)Fighting Earth may have affected her more than we're shown as well. I've often thought that would have been a better reason for her to hare off to the stars than mourning Marcus and what might have been.
I like the idea that it's just part of who Sheridan is. Every hero needs a flaw, even if it's a semi-positive flaw. He just can't give up on people, which is maybe why they follow him.
no subject
Date: 2015-01-28 01:09 pm (UTC)Ooh, I really like that theory!