Rewatch: "Moments of Transition"

[ruuger]

I have to say that I was kinda surprised that this one turned up on the list.

(it's the one where Neroon ends the Minbari Civil War... well, I guess that's why it was so popular)

Bonus reading:

Analysis on Lurker's Guide
Discussion at B5_revisited

Comments

[alexcat.livejournal.com]

I always found this one odd... at least the Neroon part. I knew he changed but his dying declaration was a bit much.

And Bester! I think I am the only B5 fan on earth who despises bester and hates to watch him in any episode!

[vjs2259.livejournal.com]

The first few times I watched this I thought Neroon's declaration was more practical than heartfelt--he was going to die in the Wheel which would give the Warrior class the right to rule, which was not what he wanted. So he had to make his deathbed conversion to give rule back to the Religious caste. Or explicitly to Delenn whom he had come to trust to do the right thing. Since she turned over the Council to the Workers, he wasn't betraying his birth caste after all.
The war really seemed to be Warrior vs. Religious, didn't it?

[vjs2259.livejournal.com]

I like this episode (and Atonement) for the glimpses they give us of Minbari culture. I bitterly resent the early cancellation which short-changed us in regards to the Minbari Civil War. There should have been more, much more. I very much like JMS' concept (a good one) that things fall apart after a major conflict, that internal rifts become obvious and fault-lines crack, that moments of transition often result in pain and the birth of a new order.

The Warrior caste and their motivations intrigue me. Their sense of intense betrayal after the Earth-Minbari war, being called off at the point of ultimate victory...is that why they sat out the Shadow War? In a fit of pique?

Delenn says at one point that the Religious case trained the Warriors. Did the Religious caste include all teachers, even of warfare?

"They build. We fight. You pray." Watching the Workers and Religious case fight the Shadow War, and 'win' must have galled the Warriors no end. How did that work anyway? The lines could not have been that strict. Either Warriors helped out in the fight, or the Workers flew the ships they built and the Religious (because of their training role) knew how to fight. As an aside: Lennier talks about having been trained to fight, he was of an order of 'fighting monks'. Or is that fanon??

Neroon's change of caste mirrors Branmer's back from Season One. He was Branmer's first officer and butted heads with Delenn over his legacy then. Perhaps he is another closed circle?

Did Shakiri really believe everyone would just settle down and accept his caste's rule after the war? Delenn implies he was setting them up for a return to the in-fighting that went on before Valen set up the Council and the 1000 years of peace. She surrenders solely because they were outgunned. Has Shakiri never heard of guerilla warfare?

Oh god, now I want to write an epic where Shakiri wins and Delenn and Lennier remain on Minbar to run the Resistance. With Neroon as a sympathizer in high places. Or maybe it's uncertain what side he's really on. My mind is racing.

Do we want to hash over JMS's statement that B5 was about 'a warrior who became a priest, and a priest who became a warrior'? I'm always up for that.

The title comes from G'Kar's words from the end of S3. I always hear the words in his quietly expressive voice:

"The future is all around us, waiting in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation.

No one knows the shape of that future, or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain."

[jenn-calaelen.livejournal.com]

I love that we see more of Minbari culture here and wish there was more of it in the show.

From what we see later, I think at least some of the weapons teachers for the Rangers are Warrior Caste, so idk about all the teachers being Religious Caste. But then the Religious and Worker Caste having control over a lot of the ships didn't make sense to me either - unless what we see called Minbari War Cruisers are actually a general purpose ship design, and they all have weapons in case of attack, and thus the crews have training in using the weapons (or for that matter have some Warrior Caste members stationed there and those chose to remain with their crews)... idk...

Shakiri just seems to me to be mostly power mad - I suspect things like guerilla warfare don't matter much to him as he doesn't seem to care about the body count (after all they would be unlikely to be able to get to him, especially if he is mostly on a ship surrounded by his loyal supporters).

Oh god, now I want to write an epic where Shakiri wins and Delenn and Lennier remain on Minbar to run the Resistance. With Neroon as a sympathizer in high places. Or maybe it's uncertain what side he's really on. My mind is racing.
That sounds amazing!

[vjs2259.livejournal.com]

That's right, in Learning Curve we saw some of the Ranger teachers. Although weren't the Warriors notably not bullish on the whole Ranger idea? Or is that more fanon. I've written too many Minbari sagas; it's confusing. Wish we'd seen more of the set-up on Minbar.

Shakiri was notably blase about body count, wasn't he? He seemed more of a politician than a warrior. Or a tyrant in the making.

[jenn-calaelen.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure how much is fanon or canon (or canon from some of the sources other than the show - I haven't read many of them, but have come across some of the details/summaries).

Shakiri would definitely be a tyrant if he had succeeded, although how long he would have survived is a question...

[jenn-calaelen.livejournal.com]

One thing I always find troubling about this episode is that Delenn basically tricked Neroon into killing himself. She told him that she would leave the wheel in the making of the plan, and then did the opposite.

I wonder how things would have turned out differently if she had died and Neroon had survived. I suspect Shakiri would have been disgraced by failure, but would the rest of the Warrior Caste have turned to Neroon or would his participation in the plan be seen as a kind of treachery? Would the other members of the Religious Caste have followed Delenn's plan? So many possibilities!

[vjs2259.livejournal.com]

No! I think Delenn fully intended to be the one to die. She left instructions with Lennier after all. She told Neroon she would leave just to get him to go along with the plan.

The person who stayed in the Wheel and died showed that their plan to rule was right, that they were willing to die for their caste (originally this was to decide which caste 'won'). So the Religious caste (with her instructions??) would have ruled. Whether Shakiri would have agreed to that, even with the pressure of public opinion and at least some of his Warriors trying to hold him to it I don't know.

Actually maybe Sebastian was right. She's a fanatic. And the whole thing about dying alone with no one to see? Not so much here.

And the Religious caste might well have taken over and taken terrible revenge on the Warrior caste. The war might have flared up all over again. I don't know; Delenn was banking on her people following the old traditions. I don't think she was banking on Neroon.

[jenn-calaelen.livejournal.com]

*nods* I'm not sure - I agree about Delenn being a fanatic, but idk if she believed she would actually die or not, although I suspect she believed it would work. But given the rest we see, I'm not sure, it seems that neither the Religious or Warrior Castes were interested in peace as much as victory.

[vjs2259.livejournal.com]

Personally I think she left instructions the Council be made majority Worker but am not sure the Religious caste would have obeyed if she had died in the Wheel. Certainly Shakiri would have fought it, if he had any credibility left.
All that stuff Lennier says about her being naive about her own caste might play into this. If she only sees the best in her own people it's a considerable blind spot.
I get a strong sense of martyrdom from Delenn (and perhaps that's what Kosh sensed and why the Inquisition). First the Chrysalis then the Wheel. She dodges it in Atonement in a supremely sneaky way, and that of course would have been a quiet lonely way to fade out of sight. Not splashy like the Wheel. Maybe Sebastian was right after all. About her not wanting to die alone in the dark, not abouther wanting the parade and her name on everyone's lips.

[jenn-calaelen.livejournal.com]

*nods* It is very hard to work out what would have happened if she had died.
She certainly does seem to throw herself into sacrificial situations.

[ruuger]

Delenn's fanaticism has always been one of my favourite things about her. You don't often get female characters like that (at least ones who aren't villains). People always praise Londo and G'Kar for being such complex characters, but I think that Delenn is right up there with them.

Delenn was banking on her people following the old traditions

This is how I see it as well. One of Delenn's biggest flaws is her inability to even consider the idea that not all people think like her - that's why, I think, the whole civil war came as such a shock to her. Because Minbari do not kill Minbari! It just does not happen. She has a specific view of the world, and will do everything to make sure that what she believes should happen will happen.

(I mean, in the original outline for the show, Delenn was the kind of a person who would change their sex to be able to give birth to a space!Jesus so that a prophecy would be fulfilled)

[vjs2259.livejournal.com]

Delenn's sneaky but also bull-headed. I like that. A long time ago I asked people to describe the characters in one word. Delenn was harder to pin down than I thought.

She also got dragged down by the love story (as much as I adore the love story). It always gives me a twinge when she starts standing behind the White Star command chair instead of sitting in it.

I also liked seeing John being the one left behind to worry in this story.

[philstar22.livejournal.com]

I agree about the love story. Particularly in season 5 where she is playing second fiddle to Sheridan a lot. I adore the two of them together, but I adore them as two badass leaders who love each other and fight side by side.

[philstar22.livejournal.com]

Loved this episode. I've always loved Neroon and his arc. And Delenn being badass and awesome again. And I always love Minbari-centric episodes. They are such a fascinating race.

I like Bester better when his storylines are secondary. I love his character, but I usually hate the telepath-focused episodes.

[vjs2259.livejournal.com]

Frankly Sheridan should have been second fiddle to her in the diplomacy, running an Alliance department. Power behind the throne I suppose. Blech.